Researcher: so, let's start nice and easy. in short, did you enjoy the story? Participant 1: yes! Participant 2: yes! Researcher: okay Participant 2: yeah a lot Researcher: that's all we'll say on that note for now. we can talk about it later at the end of the interview. So, first question: when did you first notice the other player? when you werer playing through when did you first notice that either you'd affected them, or you first noticed they'd affected you? Participant 2: does waiting on options count? Researcher: can do Participant 2: then technically, like, first half of the first half. midway through the first act, kind of thing. maybe a bit after that. Researcher: okay, [p1]? Participant 1: it wasn't until i saw a decision thing that said, that started with "this player has made a decision here" Participant 2: yeah, that's when i got a definitive answer to my, to I guess what was in my head, im probably like waiting on them, or something like Researcher: okay Participant 1: i did, i did suspect the idea that maybe it was it when just two names were mentioned, thre was like, todd and sarah, and i was like, is sarah the other player? but that was only a passing thought and even if i did think that, i didn't think that Sarah had affected Todd at tht point, until, confirmation Researcher: okay, so, let's decide... so when you were going through the flashbacks, those memory chunks, whats the first scene that comes to mind? Participant 2: the heist that went wrong Researcher: which heist was that, can you be more specific? Participant 2: sorry, the 'accident', air quotes. when, er, todd defended sarah. well, shot the guy, not defended sarah, well, kind of Researcher: okay, so at the time Participant 1: what about me? Researcher: you can answer as well! i mean, i'm just going to bounce questions between you both, and you can talk to each other, that's fine Participant 2: my saviour! Participant 1: the one that I remember is when I found, when todd found, the USB with data about sarah. Researcher: okay, so, when you found the usb, how difficult was it to make that choice? Participant 1: it was fairly... it wasn't immediate, it was fairly difficult, to decide. Researcher: what were you thinking about when you made that choice? Participant 1: particularly how sarah has acted in good faith towards me and been nice to todd, before. Participant 2: of course, you were the rookie under my wing Participant 1: but also, i really wanted to know the secrets that she wasn't telling me, so at the same time, i was wanting to be loyal to the organisation and not say. Researcher: intersting. so when you made that decision? which decision did you make actually? for the record? Participant 1: to tell sarah that her data was on the usb Researcher: right Participant 1: which her name was Researcher: so when you made that decision, did you think about how it might affect the other player? did you think about the other player at all? if not, that's totally fine. Participant 1: i didn't think about the other player in real, meta, terms, like, i thought about the characters of sarah more rather than the player Researcher: ah, okay Participant 1: and i didn't think about, in which was it would affect them Researcher: that's fair enough. so, for either of you, was there a part of the story that caused you particularly to think or feel something about the other player? Participant 2: yes, im trying to remember when. there was a choice that i spent quite a while on deciding because in my head i was thinking what would the other player appreciate more in terms of, work to convince him to cooperate more, and i was tihkning aobut the player, not just the character Researcher: interesting, what were the choices? or which part of the story was it in? Participant 1: i think it know Participant 2: it was act 3 probably, when we were having the conversation, i think i was always trying to find the best thing to say to convince him to let me go, to convince Participant 1: me, specifically, rahter than todd? Participant 2: yes, it was a bit more you than convincing todd, the character, so i was convincing the player more rather than convincing the character Researcher: do you think it played into it much, so I know you have got an established relationship with [p1], you could say, and for the record can you say how well you know [p1]? and vice versa? Participant 2: yes, we know each other quite well, we have been a couple and best friends for years. couple for not years. Participant 1: i thought we were not meant to say our names? or something? Researcher: it's fine, it'll be censored out of the transcript. Cool. Do you think it made much difference, or any difference at all, actually, that it was [p1's name]? Participant 2: i mean, maybe? because, it's hard to say what i would have picked otherwise, because it wasn't like i was going t pick this but wait, no, but this is him, i'm going to pick something else. it was more like this is him, what am I going to pick? sort of thing. Researcher: ah, okay Participant 2: erm, yeah, so i was playing a bit more the player at that point, because i was wanting my character's objective to succeed Participant 1: i wasnt so much thinking about, er, [p2] as the player, i was more tinkning about the narrative and todd as a character Researcher: hmm, okay Participant 1: although i did at one point, but not often Researcher: when you did think about the other, in your mind's eye were you thinking ah yes, I'm playing this with [p2], or were you thinking ah, im just playing this with someone, or did you not really.. think about it? Participant 1: i think i thought yes, im playing this with [p2]. and then i tought about it as well in terms of, there was at some point that i made the decision thinking that i was playing with a player, and it didn't really matter that it was [p2], it just mattered that it was a person Researcher: do you know which decision that was? Participant 1: i think it was after, early on in act 2, when i decided to be nice to sarah, or to listen to sarah, and i remembered that she had been nice to me, i realsied that i would have been nice to her regardless of who the other player was, probably becauses that would get me something in the future, in a very like, machiavellian way. Researcher: so if I now told you that the story was singleplayer, would that have affected your chocie? Participant 1: yeeeees? . it would maybe not have affected my choices but it would have affected the reasons why i made that choice, maybe if it was singleplayer iw ould have chosen to be nice to sarah just out of general morality, and, not because i believed that another player would repay the kindness later. Researcher: what about you [p2]? if the story had been hypothetically singleplayer? Participant 2: erm, what would I have done differently? probably not a whole lot except maybe it could be that towards the end, when there was a moment of like, "shit, i can't convince todd to let me go", i might have chosen drastically different just to get away. i was a little bit though influenced... that's a different question though, maybe Researcher: no, go ahead Participant 2: some of my choices were a little bit influenced i feel by the fact that, i had the, i had glimpses of present day, everything was in the past, all the heists, including like the last job, where I got away as sarah. knowing that im safe in the present, which felt almost more like the future, but knowing that present day sarah is doing fine and got away kinda made me work towarads getting away, almost no matter the cost, and then the ending note felt a little bit maybe weird, but also, tiny bit like, i felt good, because the game was written in such a way, the epilogue was written in such a way. am i going on too big a tangent? Researcher: no, keep going Participant 2: the game, the ep, the last scene, the last text implied that something terrible happened to todd, that im as a player unaware of, and as a character almost, it almost would have mae a lot of sense if i chosen to kill todd or tried to shoot todd, which i didn't, so then... there was a tiny bit of a discrepency because then sarah, not wanting to think about todd, continuously, whereas I left on good terms with todd. there was a little bit, the story was almost written as if something had happened to todd, while Sarah was there, when in reality to my knowledge, tto the extent of my knowledge as player nothing did. Researcher: okay. so, you decided not to shoot todd, despite saying that you know, that the character maybe most likely you know, why did you choose not to shoot him? Participant 2: because I thought i could convince him to let me go. because id been nice to him, because he'd been nice back, so that affirmed my belief we were getting along well, and he was a rookie underneath me. i knew like, yeah Researcher: okay. so, is there any part of the story that particularly sticks out in your mind? Participant 1: as a good thing, you mean? Researcher: just at all, good thing, bad thing. Participant 1: i was, it was quite, intensive or shocking that, there was a whole... 2 player narrative going on, and also two different timelines at the same time, because there was the present and the memories. and it was a bit hard to understand that at the very beginning, and then I was like wow this is, like, yeah, because i was focused on the two players thing, and then i realised it also has like, two different timelines, so that made it a bit complicate.d but the part that was like the most impactful, and cool, and that sort of stuff was definitely the conversation at the end. Participant 2: yeah, act 3 Researcher: intersting, why? why do you reckon it was like that? Participant 1: because there was very very drastic decisions put in front of me, and, also, very rapid interaction between me and the other player. Participant 2: yeah, and i was surprised, and pleasantly surprised, that I had options to sort of, override the conversation that was happening, always present, always taunting me there. like, you can do these things by the way. ssshs. I was like "Whoa, but", "no, i can convince him, i know i can" Participant 1: and in the middle of the thing, i realised, oh, certainly sarah also has options like these at the same time, and she isn't choosing them, she's choosing to continue the conversation as well, so like, waht can I do? i was inten... i know that at any point, she can also cut off the conversation Participant 2: oh wow, i never had the thought that you can cut off the conversation, actually. that was very much, like, maybe because I felt more like, a well, like, a veteran theif and what not, that i have more power or what not. Participant 1: I LET YOU LIVE! Participant 2: I LET *YOU* LIVE, PIPSQUEAK! Researcher: let's focus on that final decisin you guys made. so, todd chose to let sarah go - how did you react at to that [p2]? Participant 2: YESSS! Yeah, i felt quite good that i managed to convince him, i felt i played both like, within the narrative my previous choices towards this, were chosen towards this end, or just in general, get on todd's good side. and then at the end, choosing not just what makes sense for sarah to say to todd, but what i think would most be appreciated by the player on the other side, as well as bouncing off of his, of the things he's been saying, i'd been trying to match the tone, kind of thing, to be like on the same level. because i generally wanted to maintain like Participant 1: you mean during the last scene or throughout the entire thing? Participant 2: no, during the last scene specifically. because it almost felt like you were setting the tone more, and i was responding to you, because I was justifying myself Participant 1: yeah Participant 2: and i was always doing it in terms of, like, at the same energy, being like, really emotional and swearing or like, cooling off a little bit, but not enough so that I would end up not getting away. it was always with, in mind, do as much as i can to get todd on my side. be relatable or be things that todd would appreciate or be things that the player would appreciate Researcher: huh Participant 1: don't know Researcher: so, when you realsied that erm.... so, during the last act, you obviously knew that the other player was making those choices, and ultimately, that todd/[p1] made the choice to let you go. how did you... did know that that was a player, that [p1] had made that choice, affect how you felt about it? Participant 2: hrrm Researcher: at the time Participant 2: in terms of my response, erm... i don't think who the player was affected me, too much. no, just the decision itself Participant 1: the fact that it was a player, rather than ai? Participant 2: ah, so generically that the player was? probably, yeah, because i probably got some level of "yeah, i convinced them, the player, not just the ai", it felt like i'd convinced the human being to be on my side, that kind of thing, and do what i want Participant 1: like you won? Participant 2: yeah, i won not just against a mechanical challenge, or whatever you want to consider beating an ai is, not necessarily mechanical actually, the opposite in this game i'd say actually, thinking about, but err, yeah, i suppose so Participant 1: because thats interesting, because i didn't feel like i'd lost, i felt when i amde the decision like that was empowering as well, i didnt feel like yeah, i had been convinced, by the opposite player, and had to concede or yield or something like that, i felt like i was in control. Participant 2: yeah, you had the keys Researcher: yeah, there was... talk about that later. okay, so, in general how do you feel the... how much do you feel the other player impacted your story? Participant 1: a lot? especially because the final decision in particular, which was the thing that affected most the narrative, er, was very emotionally charged, and that emotion had come from all of the previous scenes, so every single one of them, even if they hadn't gotten a direct narrative impact, because they were flashbacks or something, still really really impacted how i felt about the final decision Researcher: ok Participant 2: yeah, i agree, i thought like, there were a couple of decisions the other player had made that I was told explicitly they had made, that I was a bit, not confused, but surprised that that was a decision from their end, specifically i remember that when i was told that todd listened and stayed as a guard, that i was cracking the safe as sarah, it was like... of course he would, what else would he be doing? this is a heist, don't play games todd right now. then, otherwise, yes, i was pleasantly, i dont know, surprised, but i appreciated a lot the decision to say that the data is about sarah, but yeah, it built up towards a really nice final act, all the like, past decisions i guess from both sides Researcher: cool, so, thinking about the flashbacks in particular, when you amde a choice during those flashbacks. Participant 2: Researcher: oh, tell me, why are you grinning? Participant 2: im grinning because i was surprised sometimes of the choices i had during the flashback given the present day situation Researcher: interesting Participant 1: waht do you mean? Participant 2: cos I guess everything was a flashback, almost, so then, as I was talking earlier, i think especially the fact i left on good terms with todd was intriguing and a bit weird, maybe, given that the present day was telling me that sarah doesn't want to think about todd, like actively slips into it, because i guess she got along well or whatnot. but then is actively telling herself not to think about todd, and I'm like, what terrible thing happened to todd? no! Participant 1: so that information you had at the beginning of the game? Participant 2: i had pres.. yeah, from the very beginning of the game, it was, sort of, hinted that something had happened to todd, maybe our relationship soured, i had a moments though.. opin.. when i thought that. when sarah realised, well, thought that it was todd that had put the music on for her when she was in the car, er, like the special occasion, but then later on she didn't want to think about todd, in my head it was because something terrible had happened to him, but maybe it was because their relationship has soured. i don't know. Participant 1: thats intersting, because i didnt have any notion of what the final outcome of the story would be. like, it appears that you did. Participant 2: right Participant 1: to me it appears that the present was, the thing that in, that ended with the scene in the car, well, outside the car when i gave you the keys. Participant 2: OH! Participant 1: that was the present to me, and then there was the memories Participant 2: oh okay, that was in the present to me Participant 1: i didnt have any idea of what would happen. Participant 2: because yeah, i dont remember what the specific question was but the flashbacks were, like, two levels of flashbacks almost then, everything was a flashback. like, present day, it felt like i couldn't affect present day, much Researcher: lets talk about the next thing on here, which was, just when you were playing in general, how often did you think about the other player? Participant 2: not very often, er, it was... like, one or two decisions as I said in the final act, that made me think "how do I best convince the other player". outside of that, maybe moments of appreciation, like "yay!", but no, not too much. Participant 1: erm, like, a couple of times, but not all the time, and not on every decision. Researcher: huh, Participant 2: like especially... yeah, yeah Researcher: okay, alright, so, how do you guys think having another player, doing this narrative alongside you, affected your experience, in general? Participant 1: i thought that, even if i wasn't thinking about the player, in the decisions, and when thinking about the story, i was thinking that Sarah was a real person. I was thinking of the character as being a real person, far more than if it hadn't been a multiplayer thing. Researcher: interesting Participant 2: yeah Participant 1: which obviously made it more immersive, more emotionally charged, more dramatic Participant 2: yeah, only, now, kinda looking back I agree. i think i didn't realise in the moment that it made things be more emotionally charged, but it probably, definitely did. Researcher: okay, so, any other comments or thoughts you had about the experience? Participant 1: there was at the beginning, i had this idea that, sarah was making all the decisions, and that it was because i wasn't reading fast enough or something like that, then now i think it wasn't like that, i think it was just that the decisions were timed, written that way such that sarah had opportunities to make decisions earlier than I did, but at the time it felt like, oh shit, er, these decisions are getting made because it's almost like race, the first person to get the decision made it, so that was like, a bit stressful at the beginning Researcher: huh Participant 2: yeah, i didn't have that, what i did appreciate was, i'm glad we have this kind of question, because i didn't know how to bring it up, was the general arc narrative arc, of the story, i appreciated that, sort of act 1 was yes, more sarah making decisions, er, and then in act 2, i almost had hands off the keyboard, lets see what my decisions have built towards, in terms of how much, in the other players good grace, so to say, i am, and now, i don't get to choose anything else, and then the fatc that, like, act 3 was so fast pace, one after the other, alternating decisions between the two of us, bouncing back and forth the narrative was SUPER cool, i thought it was a really nice like buildup, to it, and then for me as sarah at least, the interweaving of present day was nice, but over , was good, but i appreciated act 1 sarah, act 2 todd, act 3 both, for both like the overall arc, and then the difference in, the act 3 being so fast paced kind of thing, it really me like, oooh . Participant 1: the fact that act 3 was structured and felt so completely different to the others was really cool. A think that I really liked in act 3 that I rememebred now is that I had these two very drastic decisions which, by the way, it was very good that, it was very evidently pointed out that these are drastic decisions, it was like, make a decision, colon, semicolon, erm. Participant 2: yeah Participant 1: and such, whereas the other ones were like continue conversation, so that was really good, you don't wanna, click something that you didn't intend to advance and such Participant 2: yeah Participant 1: it was really cool, that, as I was, i had two drastic decisions, and then when i went into talking and continuing the conversation, eventually a third option popped up, and that felt really rewarding, like I had explored a section and found something that I wouldn't have otherwise, because of being observant, or patient, or I don't know, it felt rewarding, to have more options. And also, kind of, mysterious and cool that, it gave a sense of wonder the fact that, oh, there's hidden stuff here that you can find Participant 2: in the conversation, yeah Researcher: awesome, so, last questions. sorry, second to last question. now you've had this chance to talk about it, you've had this chance to talk to each other. Yeah, the fact you've had the chance to talk to each other and reflect on the choices you've both made, how do you think that's changed your perception of the narrative? If it hasn't, that's a totally valid option as well. Participant 1: my immediate answer is that it hasn't much Participant 2: i guess i hadn't though, i'd so not thought that todd also had a drastic option, or well, two, at the end during the final act, that makes it feel like, aww yes, that like, i've managed to not only to get them interested enough to continue talking, and continue the conversation, but it was all the more rewarding that like, it wasn't basically all the power on my side. that, he also had the option to stop the conversation, but yeah, allowed it to continue, and then reached the ending i wanted, so to say. so, yaay. Participant 1: i'm happy to confirm my suspicion that we had similar amounts of power, for example. Researcher: in terms of previous experience with interactive narrative, as much as anything this is bookkeeping, what kind of experience have you guys had with this, or any sort of interactive narrative before? Participant 1: we play a lot of tabletop RPGs, as you know. Participant 2: i also play, have played, quite a lot of visual novels and dating simulators which allow for a lot of, like, very narrative heavy games, which, i've also played like some choose your own adventures, both like actual books, IRL books, they exist. err, but also yeah, games. Participant 1: wait, does it count if things that are not multiplayer like that? Researcher: oh, yeah, absolutely Participant 1: oh, okay Participant 2: yeah, so, yeah, singleplayer, lots of RPGs as well Participant 1: yeah, video games Participant 2: err, pc video games, er. err, some board games get quite narrative, so there's that too. and they are, well, i've played singleplayer but i didn't get as much into the narrative as in some multiplayer ones Participant 1: yes, i would say relative to the average person, a lot... Participant 2: probably Participant 1: ..of previous experience in narrative games Participant 2: yeah, most definitely Participant 1: not as much in multiplayer, narrative games, perhaps, because that's very rare Participant 2: and i haven't played much mmos myself, like, at all Participant 1: except mmos Participant 2: i haven't even got that exception Researcher: so if you think about interactive narratives in particular, things like choose your own adventure books, or, visual novels, for example. erm, how did this experience in your opinion differ? super broad question, but. Participant 1: it was definitely distinct, and different Participant 2: yeah Participant 1: because of the other player element, and the fact that we knew, there was another, and, another player and like the character seemed so much more human because you knew that it was a human controlling them Participant 2: yeah, yeah, because i've played games on like, twine and such, a variety of them, but they're all like singleplayer, the variety that i've played, but this felt more like, personal, I guess is the way to describe it, it felt more, like intimate, that me and another player are sharing something which is nice, which is really good. Researcher: interesting, you're not the first person to use that exact word, personal Participant 1: i am reminded of, oh, what was the name of that game. was it something like harmony? or was it journey? Researcher: the one we played back on the playstation, back at... Participant 1: yeah, i am reminded of journey, in a way. because of how that was also two players, only, sharing a kind of narrative experience, although that one was quite different, it was still about like, it still, yeah, i think it was *the* most similar experience i've had to this, perhaps. Researcher: cool. ===END OF THE INTERVIEW=== Participant 1: it was so cool! Participant 2: it was so cool! Participant 2: it ended up being really interesting and really cool, yeah Participant 1: i definitely always tended to click the things that said memory on it, rather than act on it Researcher: your very last node [p1], was the meeting with the boss Participant 2: Participant 1: the complexity of having three different temporal things, as well as thinking that "ooh, this is a branching narrative", and also "ooh, there's another player", was too much for my brain to pick up on the fact that that present day was different from the finale's one Researcher: you're not the only one Participant 1: especially because towards the middle I had this idea that I was going too slow, and had to hurry up, so i wasn't meditating enough on what I was reading Researcher: yeah, you're not the only one as well that's had that feeling, there's definitely an element of pressure that comes with that sort of... thing. yeah Participant 1: but that makes more sense Participant 2: that's funny Researcher: we were also very very deliberately non-descript with when events happen, like, none of the memories, the memories had a rough ordering, but when they happened, any point in the last two years is just shrug, it really doesn't matter. Participant 1: it was also good for me to determine and choose to ignore the ...