Researcher: Tell you what, let's start at the end in this case. Participant 1: Okay Researcher: So, during the finale, that's of course at the end, what was the final decision that you made? Participant 1: that i made? Researcher: well Participant 1: or both of us? Researcher: in this case, you Participant 1: okay, me, i think i might have chosen to kill todd Researcher: yes, so... Participant 2: rude. Researcher: so, what did you think [p2] when Participant 2: by her choice to shoot? Researcher: yes Participant 2: i think i guess i was, i didn't expect it, i think i expected more... reason, because that's what my character asked for, a reason, and then i was given a very brief reason and then i got shot. so. erm. but, given the context of the story, i wasn't surprised. if that makes sense? Researcher: okay, so, did you realise at the time that [p1] was behind it? that [p1] shot you? Participant 2: erm, well it says, well, actually, i wasn't aware [p1] actually made the choice, of it that was always going to happen, i wasn't sure, but from the choices that i had the story was obviously like, a very tense, it was a tense moment, so, i had a feeling it was going to happen but i wasn't sure if that was going to be a choice or if that was going to be, err, just part and parcel of the story itself, if that was always going to happen. Researcher: okay, erm, how did you feel about that choice? Participant 2: i was a bit surprised, i will say, i was a bit shocked, i was like, erm, because obviously at the start of the story, all the way through, they'd very much been like a team, and then all of a sudden. but then through my choices before, trying to probe into what was going on, and given the previous actions, i wasn't super shocked. but i was a little surprised, that i got show. Participant 1: yeah, same here Participant 2: yeah, it felt like it escalated very quickly all of a sudden Participant 1: i didn't even realise how it got to that... because i was, something happened at some stage, that i think that, i didn't even have a choice, in the matter Participant 2: oooooohhhhh Participant 1: it kind, I kind of, i tried to make a choice, but i don't it was the one that i made, and then it get to the point where i had to shoot you, todd. Participant 2: riiiightt, okaaay. Participant 1: because i couldn't do anything else, basically Participant 2: rigght, okay Participant 1: i don't know if that makes sense Researcher: so how are you feeling about it now [p2]? Participant 2: so, i get now, I understand now, because i was under the impression that we both had, i don't know, the same, sort of different choices, the same choices, do you know what i mean? Participant 1: yeah Participant 2: like we both had that same level of control... but it sounds like I had... i probably was the reason i got shot in this scenario... Participant 1: i don't know, because, i was at some stage where i kind of had to choose what was going to happen, and obviously i wasn't going to choose to shoot you, but then as soon as I tried to make the choice something else turned up, i don't know if it was at the time you were making a choice, and then i had to, i ended up with whatever came, and then yeah, i couldn't do anything else. it was the only way to move forward! i had to kill todd. Participant 2: ahhh, okay, so i think, i essentially, because I, like, asked for more... i think i asked for more information, i can't... reason... yeah, i ended up asking for more information and then all of a sudden, i can't remember if I said anything before being shot, but I think I just asked for a reason, I got my reason, and then I got shot Participant 1: yeah, I mean, I remember giving a reason, but at the time of the shooting, i didn't really, he just turned up, on his own and he's then like choose, shoot todd Participant 2: yeah, it just happened Participant 1: yeah, it was just part of the page that I ended up being, because I was trying to give a reason as to why i wanted out Participant 2: i'm guessing that was always going to happen, regardless... i don't know, that's like asking you, sorry. Researcher: I'm trying to work out of I can answer that Participant 1: yeah, i think there might have been a way that sarah was going to get shot Participant 2: i have a feeling yeah, because i had options to be way more... antagonist about it all. Researcher: what were your options [p2]? Participant 2: my options when... after that job, when I came round, finding sarah trying to break into the van, one was to act confused. the other was to say this isn't part of the plan, and there was another option after she said she was leaving that was basically well, you can't leave with the money, at least, so there was definitely a more forceful, option, but, I decided to choose the middle option, because I thought, maybe there'd just be more explanation with that option because I asked for a reason Researcher: why did you want more explanation? Participant 2: i think that's just me as a person, I like to know the full story Researcher: okay, what I will say then about the finale, is that [p1] clicking on the, shoot todd decision was an accident. there were options to not shoot todd. Participant 1: how did that happen then? Researcher: I can explain more about how it happened with the system later, but yes, that was an accident Researcher: How did you feel when you made the choice [p1]? Participant 1: what, to shoot?! Researcher: well, accidentally made the choice Participant 1: i didn't feel really good about it, because all throughout the story i was trying to be the better person and I was always like, trying to be clear with Todd, and you know, sharing money even though they weren't, you know, acquired through proper means, but even then, i was always trying to be clear with my partner, and then it came to that and I was like, noooo, i mean, how is this even possible, and then like, i couldn't do anything about it Researcher: when you were thinking about your partner, todd in this case, how were you thinking about todd? were you thinking about todd as a character? Participant 1: hrrm. yeaah, i mean, i felt like it was someone that we were, i don't know, maybe i was a bit influenced because I knew that i was playing with someone else in the game, but i just felt like i was doing this with someone, like i was a team with someone, and yeah, it kind of felt like there was another character there that... we were in this together. Researcher: what if I had told you that the story was singleplayer, that it wasn't affecting anyone else? how would you feel then? Participant 1: i'd probably do the same, i'd feel the same, because, even though i knew there was someone else, at the end of... reading the same story, just the way that the story is going, you don't really feel like you're interacting with someone else, that someone else is there, because there's just words on a page, and even though someone else is making choices as well, it's not directly evident, if you like. in terms of the interface, it doesn't make any difference, it's just in my head... that.. there's someone else behind this as well. so it wouldn't make any difference, i still would feel like i'm with this person, and, you know, we're doing this together. but that's just me, just trying to be nice. Researcher: have you any thoughts on that [p2]? Participant 2: i was doing the same thing, i was basically just erm, from, the first choice, well, this is meant to be a, a, even the story itself because they are a team, I was like well, i'm going to be a good team player, because there was a choice for me, when i was getting the data, on the usb out of the safe, or whatever it was, i had the choice to not show you it Participant 1: yeah Participant 2: and just keep it to myself, and i was just like, nah, if it was, if this was real life, i would show the other person... Participant 1: probably yeah Participant 1: i think yeah, erm, obviously a story like this asks you to, kind of, consider your own values in a way, and act as... because obviously, i'm not exactly going to go rob a bank, or a safe, or a company anytime soon... but... the same sort of principles of something bad might happen to someone, do you let them know... then yes, I would. Participant 2: yeah, mm, yeah, I came to the same conclusion there with the data, actually kind of todd, show it to sarah. Researcher: so let's go back to the start of the story for a minute, we've talked about the finale, so let's go back to the start of the story, erm. so when you started playing, when did you sort of, first notice that there was anything going on with the other player. Participant 1: what do you mean? when did i notice that things were starting to happen with sarah? Researcher: so when did you notice that the say, you were affecting the other player, the other player is affecting you, did you notice their presence at all? Participant 1: erm, due to the fact that there was a lot of like, reflection with my character, just sitting in a park and chilling out, I didn't really realise that in the those moments I could possibly be affecting the other player, it did feel like todd, as a player, and as a character, was sort of like just, the not the stronger of the two characters, so was just going along with what was happening, is what I got the feeling of, just gicven that he, for example, wasn't, err, able to rerally stick up for himself and stuff like that, so yeah, i guess when it was like, in the meetings with the boss and things like that, what was when I realised I might be having mroe of an effect on what was happening to the other player, but now that you've asked, if I think about it, the very first, erm, finding, going into the safe where the man is shot and you escape with the money or whatever it was, i guess if I'd chosen differently, something very different could have happened if i hadn't followed instructions, so yeah, i realise that now. so i guess yes? Researcher: But it sounds like you didn't realise at the time? Participant 1: no, not at the time! at the time, no, at the time i was kind of just like, thought well, [p2]'s going to be doing her thing, and im going to be doing my thing, and whatever happens happens, but i didn't really think about too much, the dynamic and how much i would offset whatever you were doing Researcher: what about you [p2]? Participant 2: now that I think about it, now that [p1] mentioned it, that particular time where had to go into the safe and someone got shot, and apparently Todd shot him, was a ? i can't remember, she took the key from him, i kind of felt like at that time, i didn't have control over that, so it seemed like some weird forces kind of did that bit, and then i came in and i carried on. at the time i didn't think about it, but now that we're talking about it i kinda, realise that oh, that time, there was someone else doing things. but other than that, the only time i realised, oh, we're interacting, is when i was reading pages and it was saying 'oh, the other player read that page' for example, so i knew, and also my choices were kind of changing, it felt like at some stages oh, i wanted to click that one, but, it kind of wasn't available, or it changed, so that made it a bit... i was thinking oh, okay, im kind of going, depending on the choices from Todd, [p1], basically. So that's when I kind of started realising, it was about halfway through I think. Researcher: so, if you think about that, and think about how during those scenes, how you may have not... not really felt the presence of the other player, is what I'm taking from this. if you think about the finale again, how does that compare to the earlier flashbacks for you? Participant 1: erm, im not really sure, if i think about it, so, i don't know, i guess in the finale, i kind of felt like it wasn't going to matter what i did, to be honest, it felt like regardless something bad was going to happen, and i felt like being, and i felt like again, its sort of laid out, and the earlier pages it was clear that todd wasn't exactly, or by my choices as well, todd wasn't exactly the strongest of thew two characters, it kind of just felt like soemthing bad was going to happen. Regardless. I felt like wahtever sarah's going to do, it's going to happen, either way I was going to, get shot Participant 2: well for me, it was just that I was trying to get to a point where, okay, sarah gets out and todd just... does whatever he wants to do. but i just wanted to find a good way, for her to, you know, leave peacefully if you like, i wasn't expecting to shoot somebody, and todd for that matter, i was just you know, trying to get to the point where the two separate on good terms, and then she goes on to live ehr live with the money that she got from those heists, that was... Researcher: so how much do you think you controlled how the finale ended? Participant 2: pretty much nothing at that stage, because as i said, i tried to make a choice but then, like you said, sort of like an accident happened, and then i just went along, i didn't have a say in the matter afterwards. it wasn't what i wanted to do, it just kind of happened. Researcher: alright, let's talk about some other parts of this narrative then. so, before, just for bookkeeping, before we started this experiment, how well did you know each other? Participant 2: not really at all Participant 1: yeah, not much yeah, i mean yeah, we see each other often in the lab, Participant 2: yeah, not really Researcher: okay, so when you were playing through the narrative, how often did you think about the other player in general? Participant 1: me, quite a lot. just because, obviously I knew that that was going to happen, like, obviously we sat down, we wrote the participation agreement out together, i knew very much that this was a two player game, so i was very much aware of the presence of the other person Researcher: interesting, what were you generally thinking about the other player? Participant 1: just that, she would have other choices to make as well, and in my head, at the end of the day, it was a game. so i was trying to remind myself that whatever happened, it happened. Researcher: what about you [p2]? Participant 2: for me, everytime i saw todd i was thinking about [p1] as well, and erm, and also whenever i was making a choice, i was kind of wondering at that time, did [p1] make a choice at this stage? is my list of choices kind of depending on what she did, and kind of things like that. but i would say pretty much quite often as well. like, through the game. Researcher: interesting, because you both talked today about how, actually, during individual choices, you didn't really think about how the other person had brought those choices up Participant 1: i definitely didn't really think about how you got your choices, but i was, just everytime i was doing it i was thinking, i thought of the other player, i thhhhhhought of you, but i didn't think of, your choices, specifically Participant 2: yeah, yeah Participant 1: i thought of your presence and how you're at the other end making your own choices, but that was it, that was basically it, it was very broad thinking. Participant 2: like, for me, it was i would wonder what you know, choices she made, but and also when i was kind of making choices, i was wondering how it would affect, i mean if it would change something to the point, at the story that she's reading. but other than that, it was just you know, when the story was going and the things that we were doing, i kind of felt well okay, this is where we are at the moment, and, the choices that i was making, i tried to be kind of... good ones for both of us. Researcher: okay, so, how much do you think knowing... let me rephrase this question. so, if the other person you're playing with, you hadn't met them before. You're playing with some stranger in... Australia, or pick somewhere on the other side of the world. How do you think that would have changed how you play, would it have changed how you play? Participant 1: I don't think it would have changed how i played, personally, unless kind of, the story went in a completely different direction, and i could sort of gauge what the other person was going for, if they were taking a more anarchistic approach to it Researcher: what about you [p2]? Participant 2: i mean, if i felt that, the other person was kind of, uncooperative and not a team player to the choices, then i would probably change something and make it a bit mroe interesting, maybe i would have chosen to shoot him but i doubt it, but maybe! other than that yeah, it would pretty much be the same, whoever it was at the other end. Researcher: so, question for both of you? how do you think having the other player affected your experience overall? do you have any thoughts on that? Participant 2: i was a bit nicer, i think, i mean, i was curious, sometimes, you know, in general, when i make choices for thing, i try to do the right choice, and obviously, when you know there's another person at the other end, you don't wanna mess things up, or at least i didn't, at least not just out of curiosity, if it were just me, i might have chosen to do something dangerous, or a bit more like... shooting somebody, just because i would want to see what would happen. Participant 1: i don't know how it would have affected... overall, i guess the fact that the story itself, before even you make any choices, you're portrayed as a team player, or as part of a team, i guess it depends on how you view these sort of things, if tou're... i don't know, if you value team playing, and stuff like that, like, clearly we kind of did in this Participant 2: yeah Participant 1: and i know that kind of i do, even if i'm playing other games by myself on my console, or whatever, if like im part of a team or somethiiing like that, i will work to be part of a team, i feel like overall having the other player solidifed that for me. Researcher: last question, again, a little bit of a book keeping question, starting with [p2]: what sort of experience have you had with existing interactive narratives? Participant 2: what, do you mena if I did this before? Researcher: no, just in general, how many other interactive nararatives have you experienced? what are you familiar with? Participant 2: i wouldn't say a lot, although i do kind of, i mean, im int he field because i study the same thing, i know interactive narratives, i know how they work, i've read some stories, erm, different kind of, types of stories, so i've done something like this before. i don't play many game like interactive narratives in you like, but like i said, i try out some of them because i work in this field, so. Participant 1: i'm guessing by interactive narrative it is you choose, and then that influences the story potentially? Researcher: whatever you consider to be interactive narrative, so in this case, it can be things like choose your own adventures, like twine games, or even something more into the game space Participant 1: so things like until dawn, that sort of thing? Researcher: yeah, Participant 1: erm, so, I play a lot of playstation 4 games, and the sort of experience i've maybe had with it as well, is over the year having certain lecturers discuss it and explain certain aspects of it, and why they're interested in it, and things like that, but erm, whenever i play these sort of games, i think that i as a person, i immediately look at all these choices, and i personally always wish that i could do all of them, because i want to see everything that happens, but erm, yeah, i'm aware of the them, but i probably don't play them all that much, but, i think they're definitely a fun way to... to experience narratives and stories and games. Researcher: okay, well, thank you very much!